Transcript

Jessica Sass 0:00

Okay. Hi. So can you please tell me your name? And what are your pronouns?

Jasmine Wong  0:14  

Sure. My name is Jasmine Wong, and I use she and her pronouns.

Jessica Sass  0:18  

And how are you today? 

Jasmine Wong  0:20  

Good. Thank you. 

Jessica Sass  0:25  

Okay, so I guess we're gonna jump right in to the kind of questions about the creation of Facing History curricula kind of what brought you to Facing History. So my first question is what initially brought you to Facing History.

Jasmine Wong  0:43  

I started as a classroom teacher over 10 years ago, and the work and I had started working in Boston. And at the time, I was a new teacher, really looking for resources and strategies and ideas and a program staff member from Facing History and Ourselves, popped into my classroom one day and asked what I was doing. And we got to talking. And at the time, I was teaching some literature that I wasn't familiar with. It was deeply grounded in American history, which I wasn't familiar with. And in the course of our conversation, he said, Oh, I've got a bunch of things that I could share with you. And the next morning, there was a stack of photocopies on my table that was going to help me to teach that really important historical context for the literature I was bringing to my students in the classroom. And I just thought, you know, like, who is this person? And what is this organization that does this incredible work to support teachers. And then when I started getting to know the goals of Facing History and Ourselves, it just really struck a chord that here's an opportunity to be at an organization that works with educators to transform education for young people, to inspire them to think about what their roles and what their choices can be to make the world's more compassionate, more inclusive world.

Jessica Sass  2:13  

So can you briefly talk about the transition from being a teacher to working directly with Facing History or at Facing History?

Jasmine Wong  2:22  

Yeah, I was at grad school, after a couple years of teaching in Boston, and was really interested in this idea of coaching and supporting teachers and this opportunity to have perhaps a little bit bigger of an impact. Maybe not, I don't know, I mean, a different impact really, you know, working for an organization that wasn't tied to a particular classroom, that could support teachers to support students. It felt like a really good yeah, it felt like an opportunity to, to, to shape more than just to shape more than one classroom. Don't say just one classroom, I think every classroom is important. But I think that opportunity to support, you know, a lot more teachers and to influence what's happening in a lot more classrooms was really a big draw. And so I applied for the job. And I like to joke, I mean, it's certainly at the beginning that, you know, oftentimes people feel like mistake hires, and I sort of felt like a mistake hire. I was like, what I'm completely out of my element, I actually came in from a science background. And, and from a sort of like, creative disruption, design, thinking kind of background, I thought, like, what am I doing in an organization? Like, did I forget that this was called Facing History, and ourselves. And the truth is that when I had taken history as a kid, as a student, I didn't like it. And it wasn't until I was in university that I started taking more classes in psychology, and in sociology, and in political science and humanism, that I really fell for the Humanities. But the history education that I received was one that felt just connected to who I was. We weren't answering big questions about, you know, how we got here. And the kinds of choices that we make to make the world a better place. It felt really distant. And, and then we know when I started working for Facing History, I realized that that's not the way that that history education has to be, that we can actually engage in who we are as individuals, we can think about how history applies to every, you know, moment today, and it can change the way that we see and interact with the world. And so that was really powerful. And the more I learned with facing history as a staff member, the more I don't know, the more I sort of fell in love with having conversations about the importance of history education, of understanding our past in order to understand our present and our future. Yeah, and that was sort of my transition. It was it's a, it was a long transition, I think, to no longer feel like I was an imposter, to finally feeling like, okay. I think I understand what I'm doing. And I think I have a voice in in this kind of in this world. Yeah.

Jessica Sass  5:32  

So where was your initial role? Was it in the States? Or was it in?

Jasmine Wong  5:36  

No, it was in Toronto. And this is part of the whole mistake hire was that the office that actually recently opened up, Leora had not intended to open up an office. But there were some teachers in Toronto who had, who were sort of deeply involved in the equity education world, who had actually made all kinds of relationships locally, and done sort of these informal trainings around Facing History and Ourselves. But there weren't really any Facing History and self affiliated teachers. And so when Leora opened up an office, now, I don't know, maybe 13 years ago, she had come to Toronto, really, still supporting the Jewish ad program. And she was a remote. She was a remote program staff. And that role transitioned, as she got to know some of the as we started to build this board of advisors who had this long relationship with Facing History and are situated within school boards. And so at about, like, 11, or 12 years ago, she made the transition from okay, I'm working for this program within a US office to hey, let me see if I can explore the possibility of us opening up a lending library and support office to a full blown office. And part of that transition was, you know, beginning to ask this question, what do we do differently here as a Canadian office? What is it that gives us a voice to talk about history in Canada? And so when we first started, there was a genocide elective that was born out of the Toronto District School Board. There was real interest in transforming history, education in the upper years, say, how do we wrestle with our reality? How do we learn from these really important lessons of history, and equip young people to be thinking about choices and to be understanding social psychology and you know these interdisciplinary ways of understanding. And so Facing History was there at the sort of inception of this course. And that gave us an opportunity to sort of grow our program. And to put some real sort of stake in the ground to say, like, here's where our expertise is. And here's where our work fits in with the kind of curriculum that's happening here in Ontario. During those early days, though, there was an educator who Leora will name I can't remember, I never met this person. But she attended one of our early workshops. And Leora, you know, did our introduction like, here's Facing History, this is our mission and our approach. Are there any questions? And the woman said, Yeah, I have a question. How can you call yourself? I think the words were, “how dare you call yourself Facing History and Ourselves? And you have an office in Canada, but you don't have any resources to call to talk about the ourselves.” We're Facing History. But we're facing the history of the Holocaust. We're facing history of the Armenian Genocide. We're facing US history, but where's the history around Canada? And so as our office was established, Leora's thinking was, I need to learn more. I know that what she said, what this person said, holds truth, but I need to find out what that case study is going to be for us? And so, you know, all those years ago, she applied for a grant that would allow us to take our time and to begin learning about the history of residential schools and originally, the view was going to be on language loss. It was going to be looking at linguicide. But as she learned more, that sort of really, laser focus into linguicide in Canada became what we now know as the sort of the history of residential schools resource book, which came out in which was published in I believe 2015.

Jessica Sass  9:59  

So if you follow up questions on that. Can you first off talk about how your role has evolved over the past 13 or so years, however long you've been Facing History?

Jasmine Wong  10:11  

Yeah, sure. The work I did originally was mostly Holocaust and Holocaust education, as well as education on the Armenian genocide. And at the time, at the very beginning, our organization, our reach was very small. I knew every teacher that came through our workshops, we did these intensive five day summer seminars, where cohorts of 30 to 35, people would come and spend a week with us and we would eat together. And we would grow and community together. And we would really dive deep into learning about the history of the Holocaust. And a core part of that was, you know, having conversations about our identities. It was talking about how we contract for, you know, at the time, we've talked about safe spaces. And we had Holocaust survivor speakers, and it was this transformative experience for all of us together. In those days, I got to know everyone and I would visit classrooms, and we would talk about what their plans were. And we would go through their lesson plans, and I would sort of pepper them with like, here's some ideas for pedagogical practice, you know, you could do this for culminating, and we would just brainstorm together. And that was, it was, you know, the experience that I had when I was a first year teacher. Since then, I think I'm now 11 years in Facing History, the reach of our Canada office has grown immensely. I just saw some numbers recently, you know, like 10,000, teachers. And so at this point, I don't know all the teachers who come through our networks, I still do a lot of workshops. And we now do webinars, we now do a lot of online courses. But the core of our work is still how do we equip teachers to feel inspired about the work that they do and the importance of the work that they do? How do we get them to think about embedding equity and student voice in education? How do we use case studies in history to, to learn about the past, but also to grapple with what that means for us today. And where we want to move society, in the future, so a lot of the goals in the mission are still the same. But the content has now changed. Now, I've spent the last five or six years learning from and with, and teaching alongside Indigenous educators. And Indigenous teachers, like both classroom teachers, but as well, educators who I work with. And that has certainly shaped and changed. Sort of, it's changed some of the content of what we do. It's made me think a lot more about how we do the work that we do. I think there wasn't as much of a necessity to think about whose voice and what role we play, organizationally, when we were squarely working within the history of the Holocaust. Facing History is not a Jewish organization. But a lot of our core staff and our leadership were navigating, you know, who the survivors are and who the scholars are. It was a real organizational fit. And I remember even in the early days, when we used to do work on the Armenian Genocide, you know, we've relied on some of our core resources, but pretty early on, we were connected with what's now the Sarah Corning Centre for Armenian Genocide studies. And we often worked in partnership with them. And I think, you know, instinctively we knew that we're not experts at everything. And there's such incredible value to be had from working in partnership with individuals who are deeply, you know, connected to culture to those particular histories. 

Jasmine Wong  14:39  

And so I think we've taken that notion into the work that we do around residential schools. But I think the emphasis on how important it is on the commitment to a long term relationship, and then the idea of also handing over handing over the agenda to our partners to say, like, we have funding or we have an idea, we have a webinar that we can run, we'd love to know, like, what would you do with it? What can we do together? Yeah, so that has certainly been part of our learning. And then I think recently, we've also done a lot more thinking around what it means to be trauma aware and trauma informed. And we've also thought a lot more about what sovereigny means. How do we think about not just teaching for equity, but teaching for justice? And so educators like Andrew McConnell, and like, Tonya sank, who we have been sort of fortunate to partner with have taught us, you know, that there is this difference between equity seeking and sovereignty seeking. And so it, you know, and naming these practices also helps us to think about, well, what is it that we do? And how do we make sure that as much as possible that we are working in a way that is justice seeking that is sovereignty aware?

Jessica Sass  16:23  

Yeah, so how did you first get in touch with either the Indigenous educators that you just named, or the ones that you mentioned, a few minutes ago? And how have you been able to either, like, maintain or sustain those relationships? And how have you seen them grow over the past couple of years?

Jasmine Wong  16:44  

Hmm, um, yeah, it's a good question. I think originally, so I stepped away for maternity leave, when we first began doing the work on teaching residential schools. And Leora had begun because of the, you know, because she was actively involved in the process of the writing of the resource book, of bringing together those scholar and Indigenous voices of convening readers, and reviewers. Everything, a lot of the relationships that I now hold, and share, I think they started with Leora. And she was able to build a trust with a number of individuals, like Kim Wheatley and yeah, I mean, a lot of it is like, you know, friends of friends, right? Who I mean, in some cases, I mean, sort of everybody is sort of enters in differently. Some people enter because of a shared relationship. Some of it is just building trust over time. And then with some folks, they knew us first, right? They knew that we were the work that we were doing around Holocaust education. And they were making these connections to say, like, you know, what you talk about around survivors around healing around legacies like, wow, that resonates with my experience as an Indigenous person. And so in some ways, you know, because they saw how we worked with Holocaust education, they invited us into relationships, so that we could, you know, we could do what we do, we could bring that approach to open up teachers, hearts and minds to an experience and an awareness that they wouldn't otherwise have come to. So some of it Yeah, it's by sort of invitation. And it's been a process. I think, you know, learning how to learn what works with each individual person. What helps those people who we work with, to feel rewarded with the time that they're spending, knowing where their goals are, and where our goals intersect, knowing where each person sort of holds space and brings something to the table? I think that's what comes through, working together. It comes through lots of conversations and a lot of listening. It comes through a lot of listening, spending time having tea and sushi, or cauliflower tacos, taking trains to see each other and Meeting in libraries to co-plan events. Yeah, I think it's, you know, there's that first like relationship and meeting. And then there's the, we've got a goal to work together and then you strike up a conversation and you know, start to see each other as colleagues and then as friends. You share your personal family life. And then it becomes something that it's, there's no real effort to sustain because these people are people who you want to work with, you want to talk to them, about you joke about things you you know, when things are happening, that are out in the world, that it's worth reaching out and saying, like, Hey, how are you doing? You know, I think over time and over working together, it's been a process of learning about each other, and really seeing each other and what each other needs. And then doing our best, I think on both sides to support each other and forward each other's missions. Alright, that's a really long rambling.

Jessica Sass  21:15  

So I want to rewind a bit, because there was a question that I wrote down that I hadn't touched on. So you said earlier on how there was a woman that came to, like, hear Leora speak about bringing Facing History Canada, and kind of questions came up around like, what is it that gives us Facing History, Canada's specific voice, and in looking inwards in ourselves? So I'm wondering to you, how would you define like, how the Canada offices' voice? How would you say it deviates from say, the US offices'?

Jasmine Wong  21:55  

Yeah. Oh, interesting. I mean, so it's like speaking of sovereignty, I mean, we are a separate entity, from our US offices. The decisions that we make are, I mean, largely our own. We are certainly connected to organizational initiatives. And at times, organizational grants, we are very much invested in moving together forward in the same direction. But I think it's important that we are our own entity, right? Ultimately, Leora and I make a lot of the decisions for what we do together. And so we don't have to go through layers of hierarchy in a lot of cases. In some cases,  we obviously do, you know, we rely on colleagues for things like r&d, so research and development and publications. So when it came, you know, to the development of the Stolen Lives Indigenous Peoples of Canada and the Residential Schools Resource, that actually required a lot of conversations with head office to say, you know, who has time to do research and development, who has time to, you know, do all the copywriting and the Publishing and Editing and checking to make sure that attribution is are correct, and the images are all sourced properly? You know, these things require this entire team from shipping to purchasing to, you know, copyright. And that is a back and forth. And that is a matter of saying, you know, we have the funding, do you have the timeline, and it is a, it's a conversation. And there's lots of people who are involved in that decision making. So there are some things that are really where we are really intertwined, where it really is collegial work, and we're pulling together. All our online courses require a digital operations and digital learning team, to put together everything that then comes through us. These things go back and forth. And so that's about, you know, making sure that we're in a good relationship and that we have a good understanding of what's on their plate and what's on our plate. But then there's a lot of areas in which Laura and I and Erez have a fair amount of autonomy for decision making. So things like webinars, workshops that we run, who we partner with. The kinds of blog posts that we write are things that we have quite a bit of control over. 

Jessica Sass  25:04  

So are you speaking in relation to the question around kind of being your own entity? Or you can answer this specifically, in working in community with other educators and co creating curriculumm what are and were some challenges that come up in the work?

Jasmine Wong  25:27  

with co-creating curriculum?

Jessica Sass  25:29  

either either working with other educators, like in creating, say, the Stolen Lives or Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women, or, or and just in, in having, you know, in, in making kind of your own decisions and being her own entity kind of separate from from the US.

Jasmine Wong  25:54  

I mean, I think that with any, in any partnership, I think it's figuring out what everybody needs out of that partnership. I think that's an important thing. Figuring out what everyone wants to bring to the table and how much time people can commit. And, and figuring out how, how invested people are in, in the goals, in the shared goals. I think that oftentimes, that's the most tricky part of any partnership.

Jasmine Wong  26:41  

Yeah, figuring out, I think figuring out what each person wants to give and get out of, out of that partnership is, is one of the most important things. And then I think once that's established, or once we sort of figure that out. It's thinking about what each person brings to the table. And I think that often happens through trial and error, right, through conversations that you have, through offering something and then seeing if that offer is what's needed. And then I think the you know, it's like logistics is often a tripping point as well. It depends on who has what time because everybody is stretched, right? Everybody is really busy. And so figuring out how to move projects forward and try to get on the same page and find time to work together is, you know, is a logistical challenge with any partnership. Yeah, but then I think once something is happening, and something has happened, you know, you learn from each of those experiences, what worked? How, and you get to sort of look back and say, like, wow, what did I learn from that partnership? What is it that my partner's got out of it? And do we want to do something again, and this time with a little bit more clarity about what each person brings. And you know, with each iteration, I think there is more and more trust built. Because you have an understanding of what each person needs and wants out of the work that they that they bring, and you have a sense of what your partners have in terms of like what's what's their capacity? What are their specialized skills? What are the things that you want to sort of give them a platform to do because they're incredible at something that you have no capacity for? So figuring that stuff out? I think it happens over iterations of work together. Yeah, I Yeah. I think it's a lot of like, listening, reflecting and spending time, you know, working through the work.

Jessica Sass  28:49  

Yeah. So reflecting on your experience directly working with educators and people outside of Facing History. What about that type of work, and working environment sustains you? And like your own kind of practice? Or we could say that, you know, you're still a teacher in a different capacity. So how does it impact your own, like, pedagogical approach to things?

Jasmine Wong  29:14  

Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, maybe this goes back to how I started with Facing History, is that there's a little bit of like imposter syndrome, right? Where it's like, oh, gosh, like, how am I supposed to know everything that I'm supposed to know, to do what I'm supposed to do. And over the course of, you know, 11 years is developing a little bit more. It's  knowing, I think, like starting to understand what I know and what I bring to the table. But it's also a deep appreciation for all the people that I've had an opportunity to work with, who feed into My learning, and also seeing that, you know, what I bring to the table is something of value to them. And that's something where they are also growing. And there's just something really, for me, I'm a curious person, I love being with people, and I love learning from people. And I think the more I learn from other people, in some ways, the better I understand myself, the better I'm able to understand the world around me, the more I can give an offer authentically to other teachers who I work with. I think, you often don't know what you don't know, until someone shows you. And then when someone shows you and is able to name it, it gives you a framing and an understanding to see what you wouldn't have seen before. Over the course of the last five or six years, I feel like I've grown incredibly, as a human being as a professional. And then I think, you know, the relationships have been really, really wonderful. You know, we've shared a lot of laughs, and you know, what could be more sustained and doing really important, sort of mission driven work with people who you can laugh with and grow with? And who you can be completely yourself with, and who can be completely themselves with you.

Jessica Sass  31:34  

Beautiful, thank you for sharing that. So you've been, you know, you've been in a leadership position in, different capacities for a long time now. And I'm wondering, you know, we talk about this term around. And this is a question that I haven't asked him, like, coming up with it right now on the spot. Most of them have been around democratizing the classroom space and kind of, you know, dismantling hierarchies, between teacher and student and between other students. I'm wondering, in your practice of leadership, how have you been able to kind of democratize like, this space when co creating curriculum like How have you been able to, potentially, like, be aware of potential hierarchies that arise from being a part of a nonprofit, and being attached to an institution and in working in communities with others? Like how have you been able to kind of navigate different roles, like, people's roles in ensuring that people feel comfortable to share a voice etc, like in this space, specifically around like co creation of Stolen Lives or any other curriculum?

Jasmine Wong  32:57  

Yeah, so that's a multi-layered question. And actually, I haven't thought I hadn't thought about this before. But I mean, I think I think there's, I think that there's there's a there's definitely a mindset that is brought to the table, right? I think, as

Jasmine Wong  33:23  

I mean, two things. One is growing up as someone who is both situated in a dominant culture, but also does not present. within that culture. There is always a bit of being able to dance between an insider and outsider role. I think a number of my formative experiences as a young person, being exposed to Paulo Freire and adult education models, and then witnessing experiential education, thinking about my own education and my own elementary education in Montessori schools. And then my graduate school experiences in design thinking all of those require this posture of curiosity, of sort of creative integration of new knowledge. It all sort of comes from this belief that each individual brings something unique to the table that we are all learning and growing and all the time. So I, I think I've, I've always operated under the, under the core belief that I don't know everything, and I can't know everything. And that what other people bring is worth sitting back and listening to first before asserting What I know and what I do? I think that that's been part of my own practice personally. And I think that's a mindset, right? It's, I think it's a mindset, it's an approach of cultural humility, to know and to understand and to make space for what others bring into take a posture of listening first. And of also recognizing that, and of recognizing that, you know, there will be things that I don't understand. And so I have to listen. And that life will be richer for doing that. I think that's the mindset.

Jasmine Wong  35:44   

I think in terms of the structure, and in terms of hierarchies. One of the ways that I think that Facing History is, is unique in some ways, because we are an external organization. So when we contract with partners, oh, let me share a let me share a moment. That maybe is helpful. 

Jasmine Wong  36:19  

I remember in the early days, when I was working, and starting to facilitate learning on teaching other residential schools, I first met Kim Wheatley, who is a knowledge holder, and a grandmother. And I remembered being really nervous. And I didn't know what she needed, what she expected. I didn't know if I was going to say the wrong thing, or do the wrong thing. And I think in an environment I've probably had a lot of fear, walking into that situation. And so there was an amount of deference, I think I gave and respect that I gave. Because she was introduced to me as this person who was going to hold space. And she was a knowledge holder. And there's something like, I didn't know what that meant. And I remember, at one point, you know, presenting the tobacco to her, and I had sort of been walked through the process by Leora like, this is, you know, how she had learned how to do it. And I remember at that moment, Kim said to me, you know, I know that we contracted. And, you know, I know that we had agreed verbally, but at the moment, I'm not feeling it. I have a right to say no. And I think that, that knowledge, it really is about, it really is about autonomy, right? At that moment, what she named for me was that we can enter into, you know, so-called agreements or contracts with individuals. But if you truly respect somebody's ability to make a judgment call, if you truly vest that person with the power to say, no. That's a certain understanding of that relationship and the power dynamic there. Right? It's, I can't, I'm not going to force her to say or do anything. And I remember in those early conversations about what I was actually asking, when I offer the same, the sacred tobacco, it wasn't thank you for doing this. It wasn't here, we agreed to do this. It was, you know, here's what I hope you'll bring to the space. And she has the opportunity at that point to say, thank you. But no, that's not what I'm going to bring to this space. I'm going to speak about what I feel compelled to speak about. And so I think, you know, those early interactions that I had with Kim, were really formative of my understanding of what does it mean to be in partnership and in relationship with someone who truly holds the power in that relationship? And I think as we worked more and more together, I remember Kim laughing and saying, you know, I remember your hand shaking the first time you offered me tobacco. And now we do it with this like love and this trust and with this experience that comes with that long term relationship. And she also knows that she has my trust, and so she can go off book. But I also know what she needs to feel safe when we contract with teachers. I know what kind of introduction and kind of knowledge she needs entering into that so that she knows that she is being set up for success, that she's being set up to be heard and to be listened to. And that that could be that is part of my job as a non Indigenous person, right as to how do I, you know, help soften hearts and open doors in the ways that I can or make space so that she can do that. I don't know if I answered your question entirely. But yeah, I mean, I think humility, knowing that people have a right to say no. And to walk away. Checking in with how the process is going, not just sort of the outcome, I think has been an integral part of my practice, over the Learn part of my practice over the last six years.

Jessica Sass  41:02  

Yeah. Okay, so I'm going to shift this conversation a little bit. So we've been brought up, or you brought up the ideas of justice, in conversation with sovereignty. But these next few questions are going to focus on justice specifically. So what does justice mean to you in the context of education? What are elements of education that need to be changed? For education to be just?

Jasmine Wong  41:33  

Oh, I mean, I think when we think about justice, we have to recognize histories of injustice, we have to know that we are not just it's not about how we approached a particular moment. And here, and now, I think, in the context of justice, and education, we're thinking about the debts that are owed from the past. We're thinking about injustices that were made in the past, not just directly to the individual sitting in front of you, but what the injustice is that sits at policy or at organizational or institutional levels. And so justice, for me, is about not just that person who's in front of the room who absolutely matters. But it's also about how we can address those longer institutional injustices. So things like curriculum exclusion, right, whose histories whose voices have been centered in history, in sorry, in curriculum and in courses, who gets to be at the front of the classroom, what policies enable certain groups to belong for feel belonging, whereas other ones, other sort of groups feel like they have to conform to another way of working or being doing? And then I think that, you know, particular to Indigenous justice is also about Indigenous justice. What was outlined, by you know, in treaties, and what is what, what is just in terms of countering assimilation is really investing Indigenous education as a sort of sovereign, to indigenous educators. You know, for so many years in Canada, the education of Indigenous children was not led by Indigenous people. And yet, that has always been the call. We know that that is part of what is really good and necessary for young Indigenous kids. But we also know that it's also what's really good for non Indigenous kids. You know, I think we become a more just society when we hear each other's voices, when we give power over to people to make choices over what and how young people are learning and what they're taught.

Jessica Sass  44:38  

So I don't know how to formulate this in the question, but Andrew spoke about justice in the context of one we're studying Indigenous history. There's emphasis on, you know, reckoning with the past and and honoring the past and its legacy, but there's not a lot of focus on looking at Indigenous peoples' future and honoring their future. So I'm wondering how with keeping that in mind, how have you if you have kind of tried to try to honor and recognize that, like, the concept of thinking about Indigenous people in the future isn't something that really is talked wasn't talked about in my history books. And how, how are like, how do you believe? Or do you believe that? I'm just wondering what your thoughts are on that statement, basically.

Jasmine Wong  45:48  

Yeah. No, that's great. I mean, I think that the redress of injustice is in the past, is not for people in the past, right. When we talk about redressing for harms that were done, when we talk about histories of genocide, you know, the Facing History question that we ask is, what does it look like to rebuild? What does it look like to have a restoration of society and a rekindling a recognition of culture, of humanity, of individual identities, of languages of music, of ways of knowing being? In the context of post genocide studies, we have to look at the future. It's, you know, justice is is, you know, we often ask, after a history of genocide, what does justice it for the past even mean? You can't go back in time and undo the past. But what you can do is you can learn from the past, and you can say, well, how do we make decisions differently? How do we dismantle systems that have harmed people? And so if we're talking about the injustice of removing children from the care of their families and their relations, it's about asking students to be thinking critically about that past and to say, what kinds of policies and practices are still in place today? And what is the harm that has been like, visited on young people who are in classrooms are actively still in foster care? What does that mean for, you know, kids who are coming into this world? Right? It's about addressing health care. It's, it's, you know, how do we understand these systems and these institutions, and the injustice, unjust practices? They're, they're sitting, you know, built on these histories so that future generations don't have to experience harm so that future generations don't have to issue apologies. You know, I think Lorrie pointed to this quote from Senator justice Mary Sinclair, or no, no, sorry. I think it was Cindy Blackstock is like, you know, I envision a day where Canadians don't have to apologize. And we're Indigenous people don't feel like they are owed an apology. And I think, you know, that question of justice is absolutely about here. And now. And it's absolutely about the future. And I think that there is a lot that can happen when we equip educators to see it's like, we have to be able to understand, it's, you know, Clint Smith talks about critical consciousness. And he's not the only one. He's not the first one to talk about critical consciousness, but in education, what we hope to do is to raise critical consciousness. So we talk about the Indian Act, and we talk about how the Indian Act was present in the past, the harms that it created, but also how it is present today. And what does it look like? We have to ask the question, what does it look like for us to redress harms around, you know, environmental degradation, you know, stolen lands, laws, that laws that have and ideas, the stories that we've told ourselves that have made particular people vulnerable. I'm thinking about women, girls,Indigenous women and girls in particular, two spirit people. There's a whole language that has harmed and marginalized people. And so it's about asking ourselves, How do we get back to a place of understanding human rights, what living in community, what respect looks like? And what kind of vision does that paint for us for restoration and of healing and of rebuilding. I think we want teachers to be asking questions about what the impact of language loss and culture loss is. So that they can say, well, wow, I need to make space because I can't teach my students, Anishnaabe, or Kaiuka. So where is there space in the curriculum? How can I be a champion? For when community members say to me, you know, I would really like my kids to be able to learn this language, right? How do we inform educators so that they have a posture of understanding? And for non Indigenous teachers to say, like, when is it that I need to step back and make space? And for Indigenous teachers and students to say, like, I see my voice, I hear my voice, I see belonging, I know, I matter in this space. Because I think, you know, the more we can build educational communities where that is the case, the more, you know, the next generation of young Indigenous kids will be empowered to take their future, in the direction that they want to take it. And I think this is not just about Indigenous people being able to do this, but it's, I think, for me, it's, it has also raised many questions about, like, how do we? How do we do justice for any community? Recognizing that there is a primacy, and there is a history that is particular for Indigenous people, particularly in Canada, right, we have to be looking at who was here first, and what is owed. But I think the kinds of questions that have been brought up helped me to think about what equity seeking means for other groups as well. Sorry, that was really mumbled.

Jessica Sass  52:12  

No, stop apologizing, it's been great. I just have a few more questions like two or three. So with Facing History, there's, you know, busy history operates at the model of teaching teachers. Why do you think it's significant to focus on teaching teachers rather than, say, working directly with students or in consultation with students? Why is teaching teachers important for professional development? 

Jasmine Wong  52:54  

Can you ask that question again, but actually, something I just thought of something that actually refers back to a question you asked earlier about Facing History structure, and how we make decisions. differently.

Jessica Sass  53:12  

 Okay. 

Jasmine Wong  53:14  

So if we can rewind to that question, I actually, I actually think that there's some really important things. One is relationship and what we've learned, I think, really influences how we make decisions, and informs the way that we talk to our colleagues in the States about what's important for them as they think about whether they, as they grapple with, like, whose voice and who's what, what role does Facing History have. We shouldn't assume that we have this role as an organization that knows everything, and has sort of like our way of doing things, I think we need to be asking, is our role to be a platform, right? And to like to share our network. And the trust that we built up with teachers with those who haven't yet had that trust built up or who, who haven't had that platform. I think we actively ask these questions because of the relationships that we've built and how we've built them and seeing what's been important to our partners. But then I think the other thing, too, goes back to this question of justice that you're asking. If we are going to be a justice, living organization, if we're going to be actually working in a way that is thinking about justice, we have to be thinking about what students need. We have to be thinking about what historically marginalized students need, what voices they need to be hearing from and how it is that our own practices could be exacerbating harm. If we are not listening, and we see it, you know, it's embarrassing. I don't know, it's real. We look back five years later at our own resource, and we say, we can see mistakes, we can see the mistakes that we made that we would have to correct. And we wouldn't have had to correct these. Had we done things right the first time. So I think part of it is that process of making mistakes and learning and growing from it. Okay, now, I think I've answered your question. 

Jessica Sass  55:40  

Okay. I just have like, two and a half more questions.

Jasmine Wong  55:44  

Okay, I am sorry, this most recent question was, can you ask it again?

Jessica Sass  55:47  

Um, why is it important about Facing History? Or why do you think it's important that Facing History focuses on teaching teachers?

Jasmine Wong  55:55  

Oh, okay. Yeah. I think Facing History focuses on teaching teachers, because we know that teachers have such a huge impact on young people's learning. Young people are with teachers for what is it? Like seven hours a day? And our role as educators, I see as we have professional responsibility, I mean, teachers have a professional responsibility to teach students, and when we empower teachers to do the work that they do so beautifully. I think it's really rewarding. I don't I don't know that there's another answer. I mean, I think just to be honest, too, I mean, the organization started out with a group of teachers who sort of came up with, in partnership with some scholars, education experts, you know, psychology experts, educational experts. They came up with an approach that would enable themselves to bring difficult histories into classrooms, in ways that would not paralyze students, but rather allows students imaginations of what's possible in the human sort of spectrum of choices. And to ground that learning in a case study, but also to think about where their own choices were,where is their own agency. And so we are an organization that was really founded by and for teachers, I, myself was a classroom educator, I think almost every single program staff person was an educator and in the classroom before doing this work, and so our focus on teachers is in some ways, because that's where our hearts are, that's where our experience is, we love knowing that students lives could be different, because we have, we have done the work that we've we want to do, so that teachers see students in maybe a different light, so that teachers feel empowered to, to to teach, you know, with equity and social justice at the center. Yeah, it's really, it goes back to this is how we think we can be a part of changing society is working with teachers who do the brilliant work that they do so that students can grow fully to be themselves and to feel like they can be more empathetic and more compassionate and more aware of the impact of their choices.

Jessica Sass  58:54  

Thank you for that. So I'm jumping back to another question. So Canada's been having, as you know, has been having this reckoning, since all of the bodies have been found and or continued to being found and now boarding schools, ideas of justice, truth and reconciliation have become, you know, topics in general Canadian discourse. So I'm wondering, if you do, how do you see this as a moment of potential transition within the educational sphere? And how do you believe that? Because these ideas that you've been talking about and Facing History Canada's been talking about for, you know, the past decade. How do you see these ideas being supported now in mainstream discourse? Do you think your goals will be supported more because of this or I don't know.

Jasmine Wong  59:54  

Yeah, no, I mean, I think we When the children's remains were recovered in, in Kamloops. I remember seeing a huge jump in the number of downloads that we had for our resource. A lot more educators requesting professional learning and not just history, social science, secondary educators. But now we are starting to see people in business, people in student services and administration, we start to see a lot more private schools and Catholic schools, Jewish Day schools. It was no, I think that the much broader awareness. I think it really hit home, it became a conversation that everyone was having. And all of a sudden, this wasn't just something that sat with those social justice warrior teachers in that social sciences or in the art or in the english department. All of a sudden, I think, across society, people were asking what the heck happened. I think, you know, when the truth and reconciliations, calls to action were released. I think that there were pockets of awareness and conversation that were happening. But the, but the recovery of children's remains, I think, really shook Canadians to the core. I think it was, it was such it was, it was a moment of real reckoning. And yeah, so I think that it has brought a lot more folks into wanting awareness. Which is, is beautiful. And yeah, I mean, folks who aren't even thinking, I need this for my curriculum, right, which was the original push. Back in 2015, 2016. The curriculum was changing here in Ontario, and teachers were grappling, they were saying, we don't have resources, we don't we're not equipped to teach genocide. How do you bring this, this really potentially traumatizing history into classrooms? And it's not a history that I grew up with. So people were seeking, you know, content and learning. And people were asking questions, they were saying, like, well, I'm reading about the Sixties Scoop. How do I teach about this? Some teachers are saying, like, I'm learning about murdered and missing Indigenous women and girls and two spirited peoples like, how do I teach about this? But I think since the summer, what we've seen is this, this broader swath of teachers who are saying, Wow, what do I need to know? Not just because I need to teach it. But what do I need to know? Because there's something that because I don't know, I think there's this, I don't know what I don't know, which has been really interesting. I mean, has, on the other hand, have I seen? And I think that this course is changing, right? I think that where we were five years ago, is not where we are today. I think there's certainly like a lot more publications and films and writing and speakers that really center Indigenous voices. And that, you know, that for us, makes us ask, you know, as more Indigenous publishers, writers, authors, speakers, educators have voice, we need to step back, we need to ask ourselves, what is our role? Do we still have a role? And if we do still have a role? What can we do that is contributing, contributing to learning without taking up space, where it should be Indigenous voices? And so yeah, I think that our roles have really shifted, I'm no longer or Leora, or whoever we bring in, non Indigenous people are no longer the only people who are facilitating Stolen Lives, teaching the residential schools course. That course is now fully co facilitated. The work that we enter into any work that we enter into that centers, Indigenous ideas, histories, experiences, we begin from the very get go with Indigenous co authors and partners. We don't do well, yeah. Yeah. But there are things where they need to be. No, I think there's still a long way to go.

Jasmine Wong  1:04:49  

When I think about the amount of media that the Truth and Reconciliations calls for action garnered versus the amount of media that the murdered and missing Indigenous As women and girls calls for justice was given the conversation was, I think it was in the news for one or two days, maybe a week. And a lot of the conversation was around, is this a genocide or not, you know, second guessing what the researchers and scholars and legal experts were saying. So the tone it's disappointing. It's troubling. I think there's still a long way to go. Yeah, there's still a lot to be done. For more awareness, for greater equity as well as greater justice. Absolutely. I feel like we've barely touched conversations about what Justice looks like. And that's certainly something that needs to happen.

Jessica Sass  1:05:51  

So how do you? I don't know, you don't have to answer this when I don't know how you can sustain the momentum. But how do you make sure if you can, to the extent that your partners feel affirmed and supported by you? When you know, these big news stories come out? What type of checking process do you do?

Jasmine Wong  1:06:25  

Actualy can I take a go at the question that I don't have to answer? Yeah, I think what you raise, how do you sustain the momentum is a very serious question. I think we see this now with Holocaust education. Whereas the last of living survivors are passing on the interest in Holocaust education has declined. And that community, the communities that are, you know, we ourselves are actively asking, What can we do? What do we do to continue sustaining, understanding about the core learnings from that history, because that learning has, has always been, has always raised some really, really important questions for all of us as human beings. And I remember a moment, a number of years ago, I was in conversation with Karen Murphy, who works in our international office, and she introduced a book to us, for a staff read. And it was written by a black man who had grown up in apartheid South Africa, and he was now he was now a school leader at a previously, you know, all white school. And that was exactly the question that he asked, was now that apartheid is so called over, How do we get people to continue undoing the harms of apartheid, because they haven't gone away yet? And I remembered in that moment, thinking, but that was only a couple decades ago. If he is experiencing this, what does our future in Canada look like? How do we possibly sustain interest? And so that's actually been a really active part of our questioning. How do we equip educators to be really reflecting deeply on why on the heart, right? What has changed through the course of learning? How to you hear the words of survivors and bear witness and continue to bear witness because this is now your responsibility to bear witness? And how do you impress on students to bear witness. What kinds of symbols, what kind of memorials, what kinds of monuments, what kinds of reminders? Do you set yourself? So that this because this is something that you are aware of all the time. I was in conversation with an educator in Thunder Bay, Jasmine's Cavilari and she says Leora and I, you know, she did these little window stickers, these vinyls of orange T shirts that she and her little girls made. Jasmine has has family members who were taken to residential schools and she said, you know, what we wanted to do was to sustain education because that was important for us. And I looked at these little stickers and I said, you know, Jasmine, it reminds me of the tripping stones and I believe it's in Berlin. After the Holocaust, little stones were put into the cobblestones so that in our everyday walks of life, we are asked to trip over monuments and memorials and to be reminded of the lives that were there and to bear witness and to pause for just a moment to ask ourselves, who was here? Who was here? Whose story do I need to recall? What research can I do? What kinds of things do I need to be aware of? And she said, I love that, you know, that everyday you encounter this idea of tripping in unexpected places. And I think that part of the contribution of Facing History is how do we learn from ways in which society has sought to remember and to remind? So that we can think about what that means for us today? And I think there's lots of people here who are doing that, right. There's folks who are there like a moccasin project where there's moccasin like spray paints, or stamps, or in cart carved, carved into stone in prominent public places. And those for me are sort of those tripping stones to say, like, whose moccasins were on this land, whose people, what people were displaced. From here, and what does that mean for us today, in this moment, as we share this bike path, or this beautiful view of the lake.

Jasmine Wong  1:11:13  

I think it has to live on in the curriculum. It lives on through maps. How you know, what we named places through geography and how we relate to the land, it lives on through, you know, valuing the teachings that previously marginalized voices bring into classrooms. You know, I think that part of it is learning from histories of harm, but also what sustains the forward movement is being in relationship and seeing and being curious about what's missing, right? For non Indigenous educators to say things like, I had Kim Wheatley in my classroom, and she changed the way I see the world and I can't wait to have her back in the classroom like that is sustaining. When non-Indigenous teachers see the value of Indigenous voices when they meet somebody. And their life, their outlook, is changed. I think these are sustainable ways of learning. 

Jessica Sass  1:12:34  

Is there anything else that you'd like to add that we didn't catch?

Jasmine Wong  1:12:38  

No. I'm conscious of time. So I'm gonna let you go get ready for your next call.