Transcript

Jessica Sass  0:03  

Okay, so what is your name? And what are your pronouns?

 Andrew McConnell  0:09  

My name is Andrew McConnell, and my pronouns are he, him, his.

 Jessica Sass  0:18  

how are you doing today?

 Andrew McConnell  0:20  

 Having a good one. Stressful, but I'm always stressed. So it's okay. It's normal.

 Jessica Sass  0:27  

I'm sorry that you're always stressed. 

 Andrew McConnell  0:28  

it's not your fault, don't worry.

 Jessica Sass  0:33  

I'm just going to kind of jump into have your first experiences with Facing History and creation of making Facing History curricula. So what was your first experience with Facing History and Ourselves?

 Andrew McConnell  0:50  

First experience of Facing History and Ourselves was five and a half, maybe almost six years ago. I was consultant at the board on First Nations Métis/Inuit education. And we were doing work around residential schools. And they had both a resource and also training that they offered. And the training event set up with the Woodland Cultural Center, which is based on the reserve nearby here called Six Nations. And for those of us who were kind of working in education, at that time trying to do the consulting pieces, there weren't a lot of good resources available. So, it was always like, you know, you're trying to make a lot of our stuff on our own. And so to have somebody who had already done this work, and done what was far as we felt was a high quality, but also be with lots of Indigenous voice, we were actually really happy with it. Because it was really hard to find that. It is interesting, right? So much has changed the last five years. Like right now, there's lots and lots of stuff being published in relationship to Indigenous folk up here in Canada, by Indigenous people. But five years ago, there was almost nothing. It really was it was lacking to see a good resource that had been done in relationship with community. For the folk, for myself and the people on my team, it looked really good. And I wasn't the one who set up the original relationship. It would have been my coordinator at the time who created that relationship. But we worked with, and we brought them into the board. They worked with history heads. And this, this coincided with the release of a brand new curriculum. We had a brand new curriculum that was released for all grade - grades 4 to grade 10. But specifically for this project, we were working with grade 10 history teachers, because that's the grade where every student Ontario has to do history. So that's why that's why we were working with that group. And it was excellent, it was like a three-day session. They had access to to printed copies of the product, even though there is the PDF, and it's easy to get a hold of. Working with teachers in that grade and that age, a lot of them prefer to have hard copies. And it was really good collaborative experience because not only were we working with Facing History, and their staff, and then also Women Cultural Center, which we highly respect. We are also working with folks from the curriculum department who support history teacher specifically. So if you think about it,  the whole project itself was a really good example of collaboration. So that would be the first time I sort of got involved with them.

Jessica Sass  3:34  

And what was that curriculum specifically that was developed?

Andrew McConnell  3:39  

So the grade 10 curriculum in Ontario deals with history of the 20th century. And that's why residential school is such a big factor. Because if you look at the 20th century, the only thing that is actually consistent. Historically, in Canada from you know, like 1918, straight through to 1996 is actually residential school, and the Indian Act, and it's just because everything else has changed, but those ones maintained and stayed the same. So Canada's response to Native people, you know, move slowly.

Jessica Sass  4:11  

So, because you've had a good experience, you continue to engage with the work. So what did you hope for in further engagement with Facing History after this initial interaction?

 Andrew McConnell  4:27  

It was more of a, it's almost like a sense of reciprocity, and continuing the work. They were doing really good work, and it was servicing my community. And they were doing it with multiple boards, multiple people right across the country. And it's sort of like if it's in my mindset, maybe it's a bit of the Ojibwe coming out, that if somebody's doing something that is helping you, you kind of are supposed to help them as well. So because I believed in the work that they did, and the things that they were doing whenever they you know, reach out to me for support or help or just even to have conversation, I would, I know I supported some of the work that we're doing down at, you know, the Royal Ontario Museum. They did some work down, there was a really cool project over the museum, no, sorry, it was AGO the Art Gallery of Ontario, that's where it was, the two buildings are really close together. I supported one of their summer sessions, as a co facilitator, which again, enjoyed very, very much. Got to work with teachers from many other boards, and see what those other boards are doing and how they're trying to get to it. The responses to Indigenous education in Ontario are varied because it's carried out at the board level, and we have 72 different school boards in Ontario. So that's why you get a wide variety of responses. And, then I've since you know, collaborated on other writing pieces, small things never big because, again, I'm very busy my day work. But even answering questions or, you know, again, working with you, because I believe in what they do. And I also agree with the idea that you know, an organization outside of school boards, and the Ministry of Education is actually developing these materials, because a lot of teachers look for materials outside of what we offer in the school board. So kinda want to make sure it's all high quality. I know some people I've worked with have worked with publishers who are doing really good work. And so it's the same sort of thing. I see it in that similar vein.

Jessica Sass  6:30  

What were some challenges that came up in working with Facing History, or just in working with outside community partners?

Andrew McConnell  6:41  

It's available time is the number one issue. It's where do you find the time. Part of the issue is there's so few of us doing this work. I mean, there's only the only one and a half million people in Canada who are Indigenous. And then when you start to dial those numbers down to how many people are actually teachers, how many people actually work in education, how many people you know have worked long enough that they have enough experience to bring to it. There's so few of us like, like a handful, which means all of that work at the school board level falls on very few people. So like, you know, even like right now I did a list last week of the number of projects I'm working on, I've got a list of 12 that I'm managing directly. And then my team, I think we're at about 30 different projects on the go  right now on our school board alone. And I just I just had a meeting with somebody else, and we were talking about another one. And it's only November. So there's there's lots on the go, which is exciting. But it just, it just means that you're you've only got a little bit of time for everything. And that has been an ongoing barrier for working with Facing History. And it's just, you know, where do I find the time to be able to give it to them? And that's the piece but again, they have a lot of people they work with, and I love all the people they work with. So again, I feel confident in supporting when I can.

 Jessica Sass  8:18  

Clearly you have a lot of admiration for Facing History, and what do you think are two of the most important takeaways from how you've worked together and how you form this partnership.

 Andrew McConnell  8:31  

So they go about it the right way. They ask you what you can contribute, how you can help, they never demand. And it's always, you know, like, how they just they really do ask us- there's two ways to do it. Right? There's the open approach where you tell somebody you're working on something. You explain what it is, and you allow them to find out where it sits, where it serves their needs, and and then you allow for them to contribute what they can. And so there isn't that sort of pressure and stuff like that, and then they go about it that way. And then there's the other people who basically and this is this happens a lot with Indigenous folk, is basically you get mined for information. So somebody is making something that serves their purposes. And they come to you and they hit you up for your information. And then they say thank you very much the end and they leave, and then you see it months later, years later. And it's being reused in different ways in different shapes. And of course, it's earning profit for somebody, which has been pretty much the settler way, since 1492. And so at this stage now, you know, eight, nine, ten generations in, we have no time for that. We're very much aware of it. So we look for those projects, if we're going to be involved, the ones that are actually working in serving the needs of community. It's good that it serves the needs of other communities as well. But if it doesn't primarily service our community, no, I haven't got the time for it. I rented that these days, like people, you know, will ask me for traditional information and stuff like, and I carry a lot of it. But again, that's not my, my role in community. But I won't share it. Because a It's not my role in community. And also be I've seen too much of our stuff show up packaged as like all sorts of mundane ridiculous things, right? Like dream catchers is one of them. Something that's, you know, you hang over your child's bed, so they go to sleep, it's become some sort of, you know, for a ridiculously sacred item. Yeah. Is it sacred? Yeah, sure. But all things are sacred. So I mean, it's, that's the sort of pieces I look at them very mindful of, whereas Facing History really is talking about, you know, what are the practical pieces and connections to Indigenous people, and they're never mining us for traditional knowledge. That's the other piece. We've talked about traditional things from time to time. But that's not popping up in the work. That's the other piece, right? Like, if there's one thing I would say about the work around residential schools is they really have captured that residential school is not an Indigenous thing. It's a settler thing. Right? It's Canadian history is not Indigenous history. If you don't have Canada, you don't have residential school. But you do have Indigenous people. That's sort of your litmus test. Right. So and they get that, and I think that that's part of where their mission and their understanding comes from. It is directly attributable residential schools directly attributable to the, to the economic wealth, and well-being of non-Indigenous Canadians. And so therefore, that wealth and well-being has some amount of, you know, dollar to pay, so to speak, I'll use the dollar. But it means more than more talking more than dollar and by the way, money has been paid out for results of residential schools. Because beyond that, right?

 Jessica Sass  12:05  

So how does the co creation of curriculum and programming impact your pedagogy? 

 Andrew McConnell  12:13  

A lot of what has happened is that when they asked me for something like, you know, when I sit and work with them on stuff, there's a moment where like I said I'm busy. What always happens is that when I sit with them, I have to sit and think about something. And for a moment, kind of put myself in, how would I teach this? What would work for a teacher, that sort of stuff, which ultimately also impacts my work here, because I'm coordinating a set of programs, and curriculum consultants that are trying to solve the same sort of problems. So the interesting thing is, as I'm doing that, what does that impact my job? It makes gives me a moment to sit and think about my job in a different way, like to sit sort of outside of it for a moment, look at it and say - what could we do, which then ultimately just improves what I do? What I have found in the last few years that anytime I get to sit and think deeply about something, rather than react to it, I'm able to start process and hence, you know, I've got 30 some odd projects on the go, I'm able to start processes that ultimately pay off for improvement.

 Jessica Sass  13:20  

So speaking of partnership, and co creation, what types of relationships were forged during cultivation of stolen lives or your co facilitation, over through professional development and maintain any of those relationships today?

 Andrew McConnell  13:39  

Yeah, so I mean, I definitely maintain my relationships with Leora and Jasmine. Anytime they email me, I'd love to have conversations and stuff like that and be supportive. I have met people that they've worked with who you know, even if it's like Lorrie and stuff like that, which is always fun to kind of hang out with because our paths don't cross otherwise. Right? Even though we're doing similar work. You know, Elder Shirley you've met her a couple times. She's wonderful person. You know, and there's people I know, like, Kim Wheatley has come out and I mean, came in different ways, different shapes, places, stuff like that we cross over because again, Indigenous communities not large. But then some other really cool things that come out of it. Like they did a PD thing for a whole bunch of us where we came together. And I love them for this. And there was a teacher who teaches in a different school board, he was there. And they got him to do a presentation on one of the projects he done, which is on mound gardens, and this teacher had been working with an individual from an Anishinaabe community who I hadn't met but had met had heard of, and I saw the garden they put together like wow, that's incredible. And what it led to was he put me in touch with that individual and I emailed him got in touch with it. And the long and the short of it is we're now running a mountain garden pilot project in my board, which has led to us doing all sorts of reciprocal work with my plant services people to figure out how do we do this. And as this project finally goes through this year, we'll have a pilot project with a set of procedures, we'll be able to do another school. And, and that is amazing, because that has elevated our visibility at that school where it's happening. But it's also creating an opportunity to demonstrate through something very physical a garden. All of the ways that Indigenous knowledge can flow into standard Western curriculum subjects, science, you know, design, there's mathematics, and well like that, you can actually teach the whole curriculum based on this garden in development of this garden, way outside of history. The garden is now.  Even though it's based on historical knowledge and historical connection and reciprocity and connection to community, you have something that's growing right now. And it works under certain conditions, which can be described in a either a physics class or a chemistry class or biology class, right, which is amazing when you think about it. 

 Jessica Sass  16:19  

Can you? Just like for people that don't know, can you explain what that garden looks like? And what that is.

 Andrew McConnell  16:29  

Mountain gardening is this traditional way of gardening in North America. It's the way we garden before settlers showed up and show it to a lot of settlers. I know there's, there's writings on it in early American, you know, reviews, but what it is, is it at least Anishinaabe a sense, it has to do with how you prepare the ground. The fact the reason why it's called a mountain garden is because the grounds not left flat, you know, in traditional European styles, you furrow the ground. And that creates a place for water to set and then the plants grow in on those little, little hills. In mountain garden, what it is, is we make mounds like physical mounds, and then you plant multiple types of plants in there together. And the plants are chosen specifically because they they work well in relationship. There's a there's a guy down at Evergreen Brickworks here, who's Anishinaabe, a from down by Detroit, but he's on the Canadian side. And he has this unbelievable knowledge of what plants work well together, right, like he knows. So three sisters is one of the ones you often hear. I know that in the states refer them as Iroquois or Hodinoshoni. Like they're famous for the three sisters garden, which is corn, squash, and beans. But you know, when you when you spend some time down there at Evergreen with this guy, he tells you, there's other combinations, right, like Jerusalem artichokes, and this plant and stuff like that. But the idea behind a mound garden is also in the preparation, right? How we build it with wood, ash, leftover fish to set the ground, the fact that it's mounted up, the fact that it's self-watering, it doesn't need to be watered, and it survives our, you know, our usual drought in August, because of the way it's built. And again, it's it's all symbiotic. Everything has to be planted and work together with each other. So that's kind of what it is.

 Jessica Sass  17:11  

Very cool. Can you discuss a little bit about we, we touched on this briefly, but can you discuss the like, advantages and disadvantages you've experienced in working in teams in community with others?

 Andrew McConnell  18:44  

The biggest, I wouldn't call it a disadvantage. But the part that makes it difficult the difficulty the barrier is that the second I've got to work, and I do a lot of this, I've got to work between mixed communities, that being Indigenous and non-Indigenous folk, I do a heck of a lot of translating. They're not talking about translating language, like, you know, I'm not trying to translate Ojibwe in English, I'd be disaster at that. My Ojibwe sucks.  But it's translating ideas and ways of approaches and doing work. And I kind of alluded to that at the beginning, right? Like, the nice thing about Facing History is that when they go about the work, they do it in a really good open way. And they're never demanding, right? And but there are other people that when I come into contact with, they want to do work, they start that way, or they want me to go into the community and make something available to them. And I'm like, that's, that's not how that works. You have to allow for time and relationship building. You know, even if these folks trust me, they don't trust you. And me telling them that you're a good person isn't gonna solve that. So like, I won't, I won't even bother. It's like, what I will do is create the time and opportunity for you to come together and have those discussions, that I can do. And sometimes I find that is difficult for non-Indigenous people to wrap their minds around. They don't have to patience for it. And I always remind them, it's like, you know, you've got all this time set aside for this project, if you spend the time in the beginning, creating the relationship, the rest will flow. And it will flow very quickly, because once they trust you, they actually have everything you need already. So, it's like they have to make it up. The the other piece, you know, when people come to us and Indigenous committee and asked for something they think we've got to create it is like, we don't have to create it, we have it already. But we don't trust you. That's actually where you're gonna spend all your time when we trust you. And then it comes really quick. So that's, that's been my experience. So that's why that big barrier, I mean, the advantages that for us, we're starting to see our ways of being acknowledged being respected. And it's opening up avenues for serious discussion about, you know, how could things be in the future? I'm having less discussions about the past. I'm still I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm having lots of discussions about the past. But it used to be that all we talked about, I'm having more discussions about the present these days. And I'm also starting to have discussions about the future, which kind of excites me, because, you know, when I was growing up, no one ever talks about Indigenous people in the future. they were just shocked that they're actually people in the present. So that's kind of cool to have that discussion with non-Indigenous people, because of course, Indigenous folk, we always know we're going to be in the future.

Jessica Sass  21:32  

Over time, have you noticed a difference in kind of your leadership or just like a way in which you approach work with others? As you've evolved as an educator over time?

Andrew McConnell  22:27  

How has it changed my leadership?  So, some of it is Facing History, and some of it's my work, right? I've been working in leadership of some form for a long time, I used to be a manager, and broadcast television. That's not how you work with Indigenous community. So what has really changed over this time is my my way of doing leadership has morphed into a much more, you know, Ojibwe that's where my traditions come out of. Ojibwe style of leadership, a lot of I learned from my dad, my dad was in management. So, I mean, it's just a part of who you are. So, it follows you, and it comes into your workspace in place in life. But also, in the last few years, I've been able to really kind of step into that and just follow those traditions. And come into this nice space where, you know, yeah, I acknowledged Western traditions, and I can work with them, but I'm not following them.

 Jessica Sass  23:25  

So, what does that leadership look like? Like, what's the biggest lesson that you've learned?

 Andrew McConnell  23:31  

When you see Indigenous leadership acknowledges that the people around you are more than capable of doing work without you. So really, your role of leadership is to consult with all of them, figure out what the shared message is, what's the shared direction, negotiate it, and then carry it forward in other spaces. That's, that's really what leadership is, because they would do stuff without you. In sometimes it's consensus building. And so, it's about helping desperate individuals come to a realization that there are common goals here and help them find those common goals and act on those common goals. And in some cases, it is helping people figure out, you know, where their particular gift fits into the work that you're doing. I certainly used to see that in my own management style, even before I came to education. Because, you know, my mantra used to be, you know, the right person in the right place at the right time with the right equipment. And so in that case, it wasn't about me, forcing somebody to be able to do something that they couldn't do. It was about recognizing what has to be done, and then finding that right person to do that. And that's the way you know, sort of Indigenous minds of leadership go to, whereas, very western minds of leadership are based on a military system. I figure out what needs to be done. I tell you to do it, you do it and if it makes you uncomfortable, it doesn't matter. You just do it, otherwise I'll find somebody else.

 Jessica Sass  24:59  

Yeah, so how do you balance kind of being between those worlds of having that mentality that's so far from, say what the districts that you work for believes in?

 Andrew McConnell  25:13  

Well, the district is changing, a lot of its mindset starting to come around or our way of doing things, because it seems success is what we do. I'll give you an example. We're working on a big project up here where we're de streaming our, our secondary school subjects, so we're not having tiered levels. And when they put together the committee, they were trying to decide on the committee, I convinced them to organize the committee, based on the Ojibwe system of community organization, which involves, you know, representation coming out of particular groups, to a Central Council, they have those discussions, and then you go back to your group that you came out of, and you have discussion in that group. And then you bring that information back and forth. It's constant passing back and forth of information. And it's consensus building. And I have to say, I've been really impressed this group has done. That's how they've come to all the decisions. I would say almost 1% of the decisions have been consensus building, at no point has any person with the agency to say this is what we're going to do. Done that. They've sat in counsel relationship, listen to everybody offered their thoughts, every else's offer their thoughts, and then every decision we've come to we've come together as a group. I've been really impressed. And it's making what is an incredibly difficult task. manageable. So that's what I see.

 Jessica Sass  26:37  

When you say making an difficult task manageable. What do you what do you mean by that?

 Andrew McConnell  26:42  

Well, I mean, trying to de stream a school system is is difficult, right? And it can't be done in one-year cuz you're talking about complete mindset change and how you do education. And we have over 9000 teachers, like how do you change the direction of 9000 teachers who are also teaching coincidentally, during a pandemic, right, like, let's just throw that one in there.  And at a time we're also going through a lot of social change. I think we're gonna look back on this particular period of time, the same way we look back on, say, the civil rights movement at the end of the 60s, right? This is a time of incredible upheaval. And we're going to be able to come up the other side is going to be the night or night cuz I know I'm talking in the states here, but neither Canada nor the US is going to be the same. Like whatever changes down there changes up here. And whatever changes up here seems to change down there, like we always seem to be these parallel courses. So that is, that is what I'm seeing. It's a monumental task to do this, because we are trying to step away from old styles of education as cramming facts and data into children's minds, and sorting them into who should be doing what and who should be doing the else which I've just said, that's, that's a, an old-style version, that's Victorian mindsets of, of how you how you define people, right? To a much more robust system that allows people to move, you know, from place to plays, to recognize their gifts and their skills and be able to use them in multiple spaces and places depending on where it's needed.  Which is, you know, the gig economy is certainly part of that you can see it, it's the start of that process. It's just that it now needs stability. Right? That's the problem of the gig economy. It's not stable. But that's because it's, it's we're in a point of transition from and I can tell I know, there's probably an economist out there right now is writing an amazing PhD paper on that, but that's what I'm seeing on my side.

 Jessica Sass  28:45  

Okay, so now I'm going to shift the conversation to more effect, but also concretely, ideas of justice and just like individual communal values. So, what does justice mean to you in the context of education?

 Andrew McConnell  29:05  

So justice in the context of education is that we stop trying to form people. There has been this mindset and it's still here in education that teachers mold children. And that's unjust. There's an assumption that there's something wrong with the child if you have to mold them. The child there's nothing wrong with the child. You know, the child is who they are, they who are they are they are for whatever their purpose is, and we don't know what that is. Our job is to help them be the best version of themselves and to help them follow their own pursuits, and to open up the access to the information that they need to live with others. So there are some fundamental things you have to learn how to definitely know how to read and write in the same language as everybody else. Definitely how to add subtract basic mathematics, those things are required in order to live in our society. But then it starts to differentiate as the child gets older and older and older. and really have to start to recognize these things when they're young. And to support them as they find those, those those pieces, right? You know, I look at, you know, a lot of the injustices in our school system are the parents who have already decided their child's going to be a lawyer, doctor, engineer, because in their mind that is successful in a way for. And the problem is, the child does not have the gifts to do that, nor even if they have the gifts, has no desire. And so it's a punishment of sorts. And, and yet, that parent has made that choice, it will force them along the way, or vice versa. It's the same thing with teachers, there are teachers who see the child and the child and the parent both know their child's going to the doctor. And as far as the teacher is concerned, that child will never get there. Who are you to make that judgment call, that's not for you to do it, the child will walk the path that they're supposed to walk, your job is to open up that pathway and make it as easy for them as possible. Even if it's difficult. It's not impossible. So to me, that is a big part of Justice.

 Andrew McConnell  30:58  

 The other part of justice in education is to allow all possibilities for all people. And to really undo the stereotypes that exist and that limit peoples. I'm an Indigenous person. And when people see me, they see a white guy, and therefore, they don't offer me limits in my economic success. But they try to force me into limits based on my cultural availability. You know, they deny me access to things like my language, right? You couldn't take Ojibwe language when I was a kid in school, otherwise, I would have taken it. And that's because the school board didn't see as important. That's a denial that's unjust. I am an Ojibwe person living on Ojibwe territories, I should be able to learn and use my language here. This is not England. So English is a foreign language. And it's a dominant language. And when you just kind of think about it, it's kind of insane. Right, and but that's what we've done, we have for quite some time now on both sides of the border, tried to overwrite and unright Indigenous peoples, and one of those ways was to attack our languages. And Ojibwe was a strong language here when my grandmother was born in the early 1900s. And I was born in the 70s. So she was only born 60 years ahead of me. You know, she was born into a house where they all spoke Ojibwe, that was our language at home. And it was through concerted effort that that language was removed from my family. That's unjust. And that's just my people. Like there's all sorts of other people this is done to you, right? Constantly over and over and over again. The students who do just as poorly my education system, you know, Indigenous students do very poorly, my education system, the other students who do just as poorly are Black students. And they suffer similar systems of not being allowed to be who they are not having all of the possibilities available to them. And being oppressed by just systems of education that make decisions on what it is that they're suited for. So I go back to what I talked about before, right? These children have gifts, right? Why don't we recognize all of those gifts and then open up those avenues and help them to move forward into those places they want to be. To me that is what justice and education is. It's about allowing for people to be the people that they are.

Jessica Sass  33:37  

So were, what are elements that you believe need to be changed directly inside the classroom and also just kind of like a cultural shift to strive for this type of justice that you're talking about?

 Andrew McConnell  33:52  

So we have to be really mindful of where culture lies in our classrooms. If we're mindful of where culture is, then we start to be mindful of avenues for allowing for other cultures that are not tokenistic. You know, it's interesting when I run into people who are white English, and they will say, you know, you want to bring in everybody else's culture, but where's my culture and you just kind of look at them for a second and you realize they, there's so surrounded by the culture, they don't even know it, you know, like, your children get educated English and your English, what can be more culturally based than that? And the entire lens that we use for understanding the world is English. Because they don't see that, right? When we include other cultures, we're still viewing them through an English lens. So they're not even a syntax. You're still outside looking in as opposed to inside looking out, but I can see that that's, that's one of the issues. So you know, pedagogically we have to be aware of the origin. Right? We have to be aware that our school system is based on Victorian English school system. And the reason why it looks familiar to everybody else is because the Victorians sent it everywhere else in the bloody world. It's everywhere from East Africa, through India, in Australia and New Zealand. That is that education system, right? So, we have to be mindful of that, we have to break down our understandings of the role of assessment. And I have to say, you know, yeah, the the Ministry of Education here has been trying to do that for 10 years and a lot of talk about, you know, assessment, right, because most assessment traditional, you know, Eurocentric style and education is product based, write a project, write a paper, do a test. And that's, that's how you assess what a child knows. But of course, that's that's very, very, you know, it's a very thin sliver of being able to understand what a person knows. And we have a policy here called Growing Success that's been here for about almost a decade now. That is really getting teachers to change their practice and mindsets around education to understand that, you know, assessment and I'll use the lingo this is what they hit you with every time but it works. It's observations, what do you see as the child is in the classroom by watching what they're doing, what they perform what they do with others. Conversations with the child, talking about what they know, or how they problem solve, or what they're trying to do. And then products. And so it's not that we're eliminating products completely, it's just that we're allowing these other two pieces of assessment, you know, information to be useful. And that, to me, is is good. It's a good way forward. Right? So, yeah, that's kind of where my head is.

 Jessica Sass  36:36  

So how does justice and education interact with Justice more broadly, in society for you? 

 Andrew McConnell  36:44  

If you do justice in education, well, then you have more people capable of understanding what it should look like in society. Alright, of course, you're telling them that what they've grown up with thinking. Like the biggest one is, I don't see color, right? I hear this all the time from people, right? I can't be racist, I don't see color, which means you willfully, don't acknowledge it, because you see it, you know, the person's a different color than you. But when you say that phrase, you're trying to willfully ignore it. And so here I am, as an Indigenous person who gets ignored all the time. And I put my hand up, I say, well, that doesn't work for me. Because that means you're denying who I am, and the fact that I might want something or need something different. And then, you know, rather than you understand where I'm coming from, your own bias to what it is I'm asking, but then also, the reason why my might have a different need, I just become a pain in the ass. Right? And that's a that's an issue. We’re dealing with that so much. And I say this because when I work with kids, kids have an easier time understanding justice and working their minds around it and allowing for all people to get what they need a much easier time. It's their parents and larger society that seems to have these issues around it, right. And you could see it with Black Lives Matter during all those protests. Right. Like, people just couldn't understand it. As I put all lives matter. Yeah, but only one set of lives right now are being impacted by policing. So yeah, we got to call it out and say this particular set of lives matter. Right. But the interesting thing, I noticed that when you do this, and other people say, Well, what about, you know, how my people are oppressed? And I get really frustrated by that. Because like, you know, I come from one of the most oppressed groups, right, like how we've been pushed off our own lands and shoved into small little containers. And every time we put our hand up and step out, people go, “wow, we forgot you were here.” Right? Like, and yet, I think Black Lives Matters. And I don't need it to turn into Indigenous lives matter. I need people to see black lives matter because they do. And that's the right cause for black folk. And then for me, as Indigenous people, we need something different. Right? In the end, social justice is about people. It's the sense of equity versus equality. Equality, everybody gets the same thing. Equity, everybody gets what they need. And I think that is really where we need to move our minds and reminds us, and that's why it belongs in schools. Because my hope, because I've lost a lot of my hope at the present generation. My hope is that the younger generation if they growing up with a reinforcement of what they already have, which is a strong sense of justice, and we don't teach it out of them, which is what happens through our education system historically, that they'll come out the other side capable of pushing for the changes and knowing how to do that. So that's what I see the role of social justice education.

 Jessica Sass  39:51  

So just to follow up on that, you said that you believe that children and kids understand like this idea of justice and see what's in just more easily than adults and with Facing History, their focus is on teaching teachers to teach students. So I'm curious what you think of that model and where like this idea of focusing on the next generation fits in with that. Where Facing History prioritizes teachers.

 Andrew McConnell  40:24  

Yeah, no. And you have to prioritize teachers, because that's just it. Like, like I've said, like, fundamentally, from the Ojibwe point of view, the child already was born with everything they needed. The issue is that we send them to school. And we then teach it out of them. We silence them. You can see it. A group of kindergarteners just does and they experience and they do things. They ask wild questions, because they don't know the answer. That's why they ask slowly, but surely through education, they get taught, you have to ask the right question. The question that you have, if it isn't the right question, don't put your hand up your handout. Right? And if the teacher asks the question, and you don't care what the answer is, you still have to answer it. Right? Like that's, that's what we teach them. And then we also teach them it's bad to be wrong. So now they lose their sense of experimentation, which again, affects their ability to question. And that's what it is. It's a subtle, slow process of removing a natural curiosity that exists within a human being when they're little, and slowly knocking it out of them one chip at a time until they get to the other end. And they're no longer critical. And you can see it because high school teachers are constantly lamenting, I can't get these kids to be critical of things. Right, and what how could you they spent the whole time learning that there's one right answer to every question. And some questions are wrong. Like the question itself is wrong. Right? And so it's like, like, what is that? But that's what our system is our system is about conformity. It's about sameness, right? Like, that's what we have. That's why you can have centralized exams, think of the LSAT. Right? Like, really general write a standardized test to get into a university that's supposed to open your mind, but you have to have a standard set of understandings before you get to the place where your mind opens. Like, this is what I'm kind of wondering, like, when you sit with an Elder, so like, let's say, I gotta go find so I have a big question, burning question. I figure out which Elder I gotta go ask it to. I prep my tobacco. I prepare my tabacco tie, do my prayers, whatever it is, I go sit with that Elder. They don't add that there's no, the prep, the preparation of me putting the tabacco together, formulating the question figured out it was I want to ask, and knowing where it connects into my life. That's my preparation, that there's no standardized test that goes with it. I just go. And then when I get there, they don't ask me what was my LSAT score? Or what was my mark on this? They see the tobacco they say, What does he want to know? And you elucidate that question, you've been prepping all that time. And if they are the right person, and they feel it's right for them to give you the answer. They say - have a seat, and they take the tobacco. Alright, and then you sit there and trust me that level of conversation that follows that because it's never done in one conversation is the same. And I can say this, because I got four degrees is on the same level as the time you can spend in a whole course with a professor. Right? Because there isn't a level of conversation in that space with that person that goes on and on and on and on. And it's a connection not just to the fact of the knowledge, it's a connection to who they are in their life. Because that's where our knowledge, we know, that's where our knowledge comes from. It comes from our life, and therefore we always elucidate personal stories and we're telling these things, but they elevate our understanding of the world and the way it's been and the way it could be, right. But here with math education, we figure we got we got we have to the child has to be prepared. And so we create these standardized tests, which are much more based on our much more based on your ability to do set skills and regurgitate certain pieces of information and think in particular ways than they are about being prepared and ready to open your mind to different ways of seeing thinking and knowing. And that is one of those fundamental issues with Eurocentric education. At some point, I'm going to need those notes because that like that was probably the most succinct excellent I've given for a difference between Eurocentric knowledge and Indigenous knowledge. And by the way, I've seen that all over, as I've met people who are Indigenous from all over North America at this stage and Central America as well. That's, that's my observation at this stage. 

 Andrew McConnell  45:17  

I do know that we hold knowledge collectively. Which means that no single individual has it all. And we haven't put it into books. I don't think we will have enough time to put it in the books. It's just too much. 

 Jessica Sass  45:34  

So because it is done in collective, collectively, how do you try to achieve reach? Or did you try try to achieve or reach for justice and curriculum in the work that in the curriculum, we've co developed with Facing History and in the work that you do?

 Andrew McConnell  45:55  

Yeah, if it's something that I know, and I've lived it, and I've got it, I lay it out. And if it's something beyond me, then I reach out and find out what it is and follow those methods and then bring it back into that space. But that's what it is. It's it's access to.

 Jessica Sass  46:12  

So because Canada, generally is changing, having this, you know, long term reckoning, how do you believe that what's happening right now kind of like in mainstream politics can support your personal goals, your ideas of justice?

 Andrew McConnell  46:29  

Ah, um, a lot of things have happened very recently, especially with the discovery of the graves in Kamloops. That changed a lot of people's mindsets up here because it couldn't, I guess, because he had physical evidence that couldn't deny it anymore, they were able to deny it, even though he told him they were there. So people are now open to listening. That's what it is, the biggest change is that people are, are open to listening at this stage. And when you're opening to listen, listening, you can learn. Up to this point, people didn't want to hear it didn't want to see it, they put the blinders on, they just kept walking straight ahead. That's the that's the long and the short of it.

 Jessica Sass  47:16  

Okay, so now I'm kind of switching gears, again, to the ideas of justice and facing history. So as you know, the Canada office of Facing History kind of deviates from the rest of Facing History's organization, working directly in community with others, rather than in a partnership with a higher education institution bringing in scholars and experts on the work rather than working with individuals that have experienced history, and are living it. So I'm wondering how that office specifically, I guess my question is does Facing History align effectively with your personal values and views on education and justice, how or how not? What our limitations of just like, oh, whatever limitations of I mean, like, I believe that there's limitations due to the fact that like they are nonprofits. So I think that I'm interested in hearing both how you how you feel that you align, and how and what the limitations are of that.

 Andrew McConnell  48:31  

So my alignment with it is that they're following Indigenous methodology. If you look at it, you just set it right, they're not aligned with an academy. And the academy is Eurocentric, and based and it supports and maintains Eurocentric points of views and values, even though it says it's pushing them, it's, it's still the same thing, right? With that, say, you know, right wing, left wing, it's still the same bird. So it's along those lines, whereas when they're doing it with community and actually sitting with people who've lived it, walked it talk to, and seeing that as expertise, because it is just because you studied somebody who's experienced doesn't make you more expert in their experience than them. But the Academy allows for that mindset, right? It's like, if I've studied it, I therefore become an expert. And it's like keeping that person lived in there, the actual expert, you know, you're secondary to them. Now, you might have had conversations with multiple people, which means you have a different perspective because you have multiple perspectives. But how could you possibly be more expert in their experience than them? Possible? It's a ridiculous idea. And so you don't see that right with with Facing History. They're very open to that and therefore they reach out to multiple people in multiple perspectives, and bring it in and really doing good work. The limitations like you said, there's two limitations. One is funding. And the other one is acceptance of thought. And I've seen this up here, right. There's this there's this credentialing that goes on for thought. And sometimes if something isn't not credential by an institution, it's felt to be of less value, regardless of how valuable it is. And that is again, a Eurocentric issue. It isn't that thing shouldn't have credentials, they definitely need it. We have credentials in, in our society. Right? When we introduce ourselves, I know I didn't do a traditional greeting here, but we introduce ourselves, we credential ourselves, we tell you, where we're from, who our family is, what nation we're tied to where we live very often, and the work that we do, you know, all of those credentials are important. And actually, the finding is, you know, as an  Indigenous person, I value that more than what university somebody works with, I could care less. Right? If I meet a professor, and they tell me, their nation, their clan, their all of those pieces. I'm listening for the second part. There, they tell me who they are as a human being more than what university they're tied to, cuz I don't care about the university. All right. Does that help?

 Jessica Sass  51:07  

Yeah. So with that, because I didn't ask, can you tell me those credentials if you're open to sharing

 Andrew McConnell  51:14  

my credentials? Sure. That's how I would do for those people. My actual work. the coordinator currently for First Nation Metis and Inuit for York Region District School Board. Prior to that, I was a consultant for said school board. Prior to that I was a technology studies high school teacher for that board. Prior to that, I was a producer and production manager for CTV News, which is a national broadcaster up to the here prior to that. So I am was a journalist writing for a writing for an Indigenous arts magazine known as Aboriginal Voices. And prior to that, I went to York University for my undergrad somewhere along that way, in all of that process, I also went to Ryerson University to learn journalism. [s2] And I also went to the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education, to get my teaching, Bachelor, and I'm back at York University doing my master's in Urban Indigenous Education. At all times, I've been Anishinaabe man in relationship with other Anishinaabe people. I am the son of Anishinaabe man tied in related to Nipissing First Nation, but I grew up urban, I grew up down here, just outside Toronto, and therefore I've also lived very much in relationship with other Indigenous people down here from multiple nations. I work in relationship with Georgina Island, First Nation at my school board with Anishinaabek Education System. You know, the Kinoomaadziwin Education Body here. As a board employee, I do that work. And I work very much in relationship with other Indigenous educators both at my board and other boards to try and move things forward. That's all of the credentials. And you can see why those things to us as an Indigenous person really matter. Because it also used to understand where my expertise lies. A lot of talking about media, a lot of talking about leadership, a lot talking about education, I'm a good guy to talk to, you want to talk to me about sweat lodges and lodge teachings and traditional medicines, [s3] I'm going to point you in a different direction. I would attend those things, I would make use of those things, but I'm not expert in those things. And so I shouldn't be teaching them. Right. It's like this when asking a doctor a medical question and and a layman. Right, the layman should usually just refer you to the doctor. Right, as opposed to telling you how to solve your, you know, your pneumonia? Does that make sense?

 Jessica Sass  53:48  

Do you think that you're kind of I think that everything that you've listed there somewhat different, but also interconnected? Do you think that different your different experiences in life, say within journalism versus within teaching or consulting has informed where you are now and how you perceive things? And do you think that it would be different if you say didn't experience?

 Andrew McConnell  54:17  

Yeah, 100% Yeah, like anybody who thinks that they're, they're who they are right now is not informed by their experiences is, in my mind, I don't know. Maybe somebody knows more than I do. But my mind is fooling themselves. Of course it is. Everything you do is informed by your past experience. That's why you need other people. If we all had the same experience, we wouldn't need each other. We can hope for knowledge at least. But you know, we, you want we all walk different paths and therefore there will be things that are beyond us. We need to ask those questions to people. That's why we have so called experts but really people you reach out to because that experience and so everything I've done is informed who I am and what I do. And that includes all the people I've met, right? I'm a tech teacher, I met students in a technological education classroom, so, and I knew them as a tech teacher, which means I had very different relationships with my students than other people did. Right? I taught the cool course. people chose to take my course, right, they weren't trapped in my class, they chose to take it. So I had very different relationships with those kids.

 Jessica Sass  55:26  

So I'm going to reel it back to where I initially was. So do you think that Facing History, the relationship that took a while to build between Facing History and Facing History Canada and New and other educators? This type of the process of relationship building, do you believe that it can be replicated? In other spaces? Yes, the scoreboard and what would that look like? And how would that be beneficial to you?

 Andrew McConnell  55:59  

Yeah, well, 100%, it can be replicated. And I'll go back to that previous example I gave when we're talking about the D streaming committee, that whole committee is based on relationship. Right? That's what it is. Right? You have a centralized relationship here that relies upon the relationships of each member with its own group. That's, that's what it is. It works. No, it works. If it didn't work, it wouldn't have survived.  It's that simple. Right? It's what you see that's left of our civilizations made it because it works. As why we are so forceful in holding on to it. Right, this is the defined doesn't just, it doesn't just define who we are. It is a source of survival. And it is the source of our future. Right, we will, all of the tools that we have, that are ours that came from us will guarantee that we remain us as we step into the world picking up the new tools that have been provided with us by other cultures and civilizations from around the world. Right. And we're finding really cool things coming to us from other indigenous cultures around the world. Right, we don't just relate to settler nations, like Europe's pretty cool, it's nice, but they're not the be all end all. There's amazing things, I look at what you know, Native Hawaiians are doing, I'm fascinated because I look at somebody who has gone through a very similar process. I say Ojibwe people did because they went through it at roughly the same time. Right, the settlement of Ontario, which involved, you know, the wholesale, you know, oppression of my people started at pretty much the same time and under the same economic process as the settlement of Hawaii. And I'm seeing a lot of similarities between us, and them and why and also the resurgence that we're all going through. So yeah, that's more or less where it is.

 Jessica Sass  58:04  

So I'm almost done. I just have like, one or two more questions and done with, but, um, and we've talked about this before, but not on, not on recording. So why do you continue to do this work? Why is it important to you? Why do you continue working with 12 projects?

 Andrew McConnell  58:29  

I work with so many projects, because I have no idea which one's gonna make it through to the end. So that's why you you're trying to run them all at the same time, I've no guarantee which one's gonna work. Everything we do is brand new. I'd done it before. Right? This education is completely new in the concept of colonial education. So that's why I do it. As far as why I still do it personally, because I will have grandchildren one day and I want them to walk into a world that accepts them for who they are. I know that indigenous people, all of us from all the various nations have so much to offer the world, especially in this time of crisis. Like we actually know sustainable living to the point where we don't even have a word for it. It's called Living in a Ojiway we call it minimum monsoon. I mean about monsoon is, you know, this, this Eurocentric idea of sustainable living. And for you know, non Indigenous people, it's like this new style of living, you have to step into and we go, we've always done it. It's inherent in our teachings and our stories. It's inherent in our language, and how we form words and relationships and stuff like that. Because here's the other piece, we spent all this time talking about relating person to person. But when we send into a mug, a duck, which has all of my relations, we don't mean people. We don't even mean our family. We mean everything. Right because we know we are related to everything that exists. You know, it's it's like you know you physically yours will tell you you're made of stardust. Right? You are. So therefore you related to the universe and whatever happens in the universe will affect you somewhere along the way. All right. And so, and that's, that's core to our being an understanding of the world. So why wouldn't we offer that up? So that's why I do the work. Because I know that well, I'll probably never see the fruition of it. If I do my work, well, the path will be open and prepared. For those who come after me. I don't have all the answers, but I do have access to the space right now to open it up and whiten up and prepare people, those young people, those kids to be accepting of all, because again, we hold knowledge collectively, Ojibwe people, we don't, we don't hold all the knowledge required for the world. Right. So we also have to be open and available and ready to accept other acknowledges from around the world. And we're all gonna have to start looking everywhere for it. Because it's not just in Europe. Right. So you know, some of it's in Africa, some of it's in Australia, some of it's in the Polynesian, some of it sitting in Mongolia, some of it sitting, it's all here. We just have to start opening our minds up to having open conversations and figuring out also the things work in different places than they work in other places. Right? Like I live in the Great Lakes region. There are things we can do here that you can't do in other places. Right? I've definitely I've learned that one I got caught in the desert life, I learned that a lot of my knowledge doesn't work in the desert. So you know, like, that's there's specifics all of these pieces isn't a wide, amazing world.

 Jessica Sass  1:01:40  

So my last question is, is there anything that you'd like to add to that set? I didn't ask you, or just anything that you'd like to say, well?

 Andrew McConnell  1:01:50  

No, I think we got it all. That was a pretty long conversation, but it flowed well. Yeah, it was good. Something comes up. You know how to get me just ask me and we'll have another conversation. 

 Jessica Sass  1:01:59  

I am going to stop recording then.

 Andrew McConnell  1:02:00  

Okay.